Latest Comments On Sex Education Thread

REACH BLOG:
(Some general debates on-going)

Red Panda
05 Jul 09 , 21:56 PM

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/440540/1/.html

Law Minister K Shanmugam has said:

- Singapore will not decriminalise gay sex but the courts have the power to decide how the law, Section 377, is applied. Section 377A of the Penal Code deems sex between men a crime.

- Section 377 will remain as homosexuality is still not accepted by most Singaporeans.

- We have the law. We say it won't be enforced. Is it totally clear? .... we don't think it's fair for us to prosecute people who say that they are homosexual

- the government will not take the lead in repealing the law.
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The government stand is firm, clear and fair to both mainstreams and GLBT. Homosexuals have freedom to do it in their bedroom, but pushing their lifestyle to be accepted by mainstream majorities is a BIG NO.
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Silent Majority
05 Jul 09 , 18:24 PM

Dear CW

Just in case, my last sentence "If you still don’t get it, I have no more words for you other than there is a “block” in you" is not a personal attack, given the limited time I have.

Let me rephrase it better, "If you still dont catch the drift on our point of view, then, no matter how else we explanation the result will still be the same.

Regards

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CW
05 Jul 09 , 18:09 PM

Dear Silent Majority,

I can now clearly understand where you are coming from. I also understand that this is your approach/style when communicating to others. I do appreciate the effort and time you took to detail your reply. In all, thank you.

Regards,
CW

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Silent Majority
05 Jul 09 , 15:32 PM

Dear CW,

Whatever comments made on my part is never personal. I am not a demon. Ha!Ha! It is always with the intent to communicate a point and effectively. That is my style. I am thoughtful when I jot down my comments. So, don’t get overly excited when in a debate. Like I said, this is an open forum and some have they own way in conveying their stand for effect.

You are spot on in your opinion from your various past comments. The thing you do not realize is that, there is no 100% proof. We are not God and so no proof. That is why if you had understood all the previous input from other forumers, you would by now have gathered that the forumers have always “accepted” the LBGT as an individual and do not judge them or try to change them “forcefully”. That is why we have gay friends. But, in terms of society “acceptance” does not mean “agree” with their lifestyle but not with their “kind”.

But, we are talking about gays as “adults”. It is still the parent’s right to decide, guide and make the decision whether his/her son/daughter is a gay or not and how to confront the issue.

I have known close childhood friends who were very feminine but grew out of it in adulthood. I have also known close childhood friends who are feminine and turned gay in their late teens and one of them even changed his name and took his boyfriend’s surname. Do you know why I quoted these experiences of mine to you? The reason being these two individuals were influenced by the environment they live in. When I talk about environment, it would mean such as the people you are in contact with: your family, friends you hang out with, location, etc. Mostly, it’s your family and friends. A good example: If you are the youngest and you have 4-5 elder sisters and the strict parents who are generally at arms length away? How do you think the boy will turn out? He will come out with feminine traits, mostly. I haven’t even added in the outside influences. These forces act, mould and influences a child’s mind and what do you think will be the outcome at the end of the day? I don’t need a scientist to proof to me. You are dealing with an individual and you handle them differently when as a child, teenager and as an adult. If you are 3 or 5 years old or even 12 years old, if I were to let you live on the floor daily for the next 5 years, your body and mind will automatically learn to accept it. One thing you have to know, presently, science, it’s a tool in the hands of either sides now to be used to bolster their arguments. The thing with scientific studies is that if you leave out a factor/equation, then, the rest of your studies and it’s outcome is just “rubbish”.

Above were “live” experiences that I quoted. Therefore, no need for scientific studies. Commonsense and logic is the word here. I have quoted you examples from my personal experiences. You can ask for proof until the sun goes down and you will still not get it. Another slightly similar example to quote: If you are kidnapped for long periods under abject conditions deliberately, you will even fall for your kidnapper and die for him probably.

From these examples, I left out something important for last. If you were to play these examples in your mind you will realize that, at the end of the day, the individual can still change. In the end, we are talking about “concepts”. How do you define “concepts”: how a person or culture behaves, or how nature, reality, or events are perceived? This tells you a person CAN change. It’s HOW much he/she wants to change. Sometimes when they go through willing a program of self-help, they might or might not succeed in changing their lifestyle because (a) it’s up to them (b) the environment they go back to. It’s a forum column so I can’t elaborate further as there’s more, but, enough has been said to derive the required answers.

FYI let me go back to “anal sex” where an adult should know better than to engage in such acts. Is it instinct or ingrained in us that it is wrong? Why is that so? It’s because we were taught that it is wrong and the anus is not made for sex but for excretion.

Suicidal behavior is due to the environment we live in; you may call it “society”. I fully agree that they need help, as do kidnapped victims. That is why I myself belief that after the parents, school counselors or any other organizations should help out but, this is only a temporary respite. Because, when in later life, they will have to come face to face with the stark reality that the world will not “agree” but only accept their choice of lifestyle. Let me remind you, I did not say anything about “force”.

The problem with our society in Singapore now is that the activism by vocal minority groups and individuals are trying to push and influence our young’s mindset. That is a No-No. Even Govt has accepted the gay as a person into their midst. What have you to say about that? Nobody is forcing change on them. PAP youth even accepted one or more of them too.

Probably LEE was being too polite to tell you straight what he/she felt, from his/ her replies to you. I have no such qualms. I prefer to engage directly and face the issue outright, even enforcing my point of view if I felt my logic/arguments justifiable and/or sound.

Nobody is forcing a lifestyle change on them. As Asians, we even accept them into our midst, as family, as friends, etc. A good example is Thailand. But, do you think the parent/s agree with their lifestyle? It’s like the Chinese say, “Bo pian”

The final conclusion is that they can change but, it’s how much they want it.

The ACTIVISTS and HARDCORE amongst them are not helping them poor individuals by they militancy, collective peer pressure tactics and deliberate one-sided arguments/ talks/ teachings such as from AWARE & it’s CSE programs. It’s their promotion of their lifestyle and trying to make it stick onto the individual by saying to them that they cannot and really cannot change. Society is not the problem; it’s their minority amongst them that are the problem and the stumbling block for a 2nd chance or maybe a “chance” to “try” for a different lifestyle.

If you still don’t get it, I have no more words for you other than there is a “block” in you.

Regards
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CW
05 Jul 09 , 06:23 AM

Dear All,

I recently stated I would not be participating anymore. However, I posted a reply regardless of this. I writing to hopefully nip any thoughts that I am a fool for saying one thing and doing another. I don't want to faulted. I posted because I wanted to share a thought. I could have ignored and left it as it is, but I needed to throw this out there. I don't think it did harm.

In any case, I will be less vocal and eventually exiting this thread. Part of it was because of the unpleasant episode, the other was the exhaustion. I wish to leave (soon) on much more respectful note. Therefore, I want to express my gratitude for at least engaging me and my apologies for my own less-than-outstanding replies. Thank you for giving me the time.

Regards,
CW
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CW
05 Jul 09 , 05:59 AM

Why do I set this rule? It’s simple. These are people’s lives and we should never go on hunches or internal beliefs. Many in general note individuals, who may identify themselves as homosexuals, are more at-risk to suicidal attempts or other wayward items such as drug abuse.

That is why LEE and I were able to easily come to an agreement on this that both options should be presented to the conflicted individual. If he/she chooses to change, we should have the necessary support systems and encouragement to help him make the change. If he/she chooses to remain homosexual, then we should provide counsel where necessary to help himself/herself have a safe and meaningful life. Regardless of the choice, parents must play an integrated role in the decision-making process.

To that end, if the nurture/environment viewpoint is your personal belief and your preferred method to protect your children from homosexual influences, I will unreservedly respect it.

I will respectfully object if anyone makes the choice to forcefully impose a single option on others. If the day comes that the proof is nurture, I will be on the side to change the environment. Till then, we must learn to respect the differences as well as the boundaries.

Dear Silent Majority, this is only a thought to share. If this is a difference of opinion, I hope we can let it be.

Regards,
CW
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CW
05 Jul 09 , 05:58 AM

Dear Silent Majority,

I read your reply, partly out of guilt and part out of curiosity. Your latest reply was pleasant compared to your previous one. I therefore wish to offer my apology on being emotional in my previous post.

I have read your points, and generally have no objections to what you said. On point d, I wish to I impart something which I spoke to LEE before.

To any probable homosexual, both options should be presented to the individual. One, should be the option of change, and the other, the option to remain. Let me explain.

I will tell (and will continue to tell) any LGBT who believes their traits were in-born to show me the proof. By proof, I mean hard science and proven facts. Not experiences or statistics.

To be fair, I will ask anyone, including you, to show me the proof that homosexuals result from nurture or environment. I will still set the same standard for proof as I demand it from the LGBTs.
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Silent Majority
05 Jul 09 , 01:20 AM

Dear CW

I do not know if you’ll be reading it and yet I do know that this has to be written, if not for you, then, for the benefit of others. Whether I was over-reacting or not to your replies to “LEE” is now moot. It was not against you as a person. May I offer my apologies if it adversely affected your well-being. After all has been said, I see that you have still not understood our point of view. I, like most parents and concerned people, are not insensitive or unreasoning people where the LBGT individuals are concerned. The unveiling of AWARE’s CSE program made us realize what a precarious precipice we are standing on. I count some gays as amongst my many friends and we get along very fine.

Our views are very simple:-

a) LBGT shouldn’t seek to impose their views on others:
As PM said, the harder you push, the worse the backlash. Blame the minority amongst the LBGT who are vocal, activists, well organized, highly educated, variously ensconced in public media, Arts groupings, NGOs, etc, taking every opportunity to push their agendas into our majority passivistic throats. They even have a lobby group amongst them.

b) Being LBGT is the individual’s choice:
But, parents, have always had a say in their child’s upbringing. Similarly, the activists should not try to use our educational systems to covertly imbue LBGT views on our children hoping that our young will carry it over into adulthood. That’s really mind-blowing. Can you even comprehend what AWARE tried to do? To change whole generations of our children’s mindset about LBGT from within our educational system. That’s nasty!

c) Homosexual activities:
How do we differentiate ourselves from other living forms? We have a thinking brain, moral ethics, we defecate through the anus. This is the general understanding.

d) A person born feminine does not mean he is outright a gay. The environment at home & outside plays a major part in your life. If you continuously mix with gays, then, your tendencies become more pronounced towards being a gay. But, it does not make you one permanently. Take that environment away and you’ll be able to change under proper guidance and support. Unfortunately, it’s those gay die-hards from bitter backgrounds and/or westernized, that wants to stay different and seeks to expand their kind freely.

e) Asian society is mostly accepting of them but “agreeing” is different from “accepting”. What we are seeing now are western ideals being imposed on us using the mantra “freedom” and “human rights”.

My two cents worth!

Regards

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CW
04 Jul 09 , 18:20 PM

To LEE,

I can’t really comprehend what happened but I’m sorry as I have to end my participation in this thread. If I do see you in other debates, maybe about GST or NS, I would probably participate or at least say Hi. Thank you very much for engaging me earlier and for your time. I truly enjoyed debating with you. Please do not reply to my earlier posts as I won’t be responding.

Regards,
CW
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CW
04 Jul 09 , 18:17 PM

..contd...

I know this reply is not worthy because it holds alot of emotions. That's why I want to drop out, it takes too much out of me. Silent Majority, I apologise for the reply, but as you said: who is to say one is being civil or uncivil.

With Apologies,
CW
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CW
04 Jul 09 , 18:14 PM

Dear Silent Majority,

We have to put an end to this bicker between us. I have always stated my intention was to understand where you guys were coming from. I believe I did declare this in my first post to LEE from the “Objectivity” thread. My purpose of coming to this thread was to seek a reply from LEE after the “Objectivity” thread closed. I got it and I replied back to him. I was not expecting someone else to reply on a post not directed to them.

I, based on my feelings, felt your 7 pages was more an attempt to cast me as a “wolf in sheeps clothing”, and thereby discredit me. I was offended by this. You used terms such as “you and AWARE” in your reply and suggested I had views that was pro-LGBT even though I don’t associate with them. This form of a reply were not counter-arguments, they more an attempt to discredit the person who were suggesting the arguments. I did not understand why you brought incest into the picture as I never suggested it. If your reference to incest was because my argument related to the rights of adults, then please go ahead and support a ban on pre-marital sex, sex other than the purpose of procreation, homosexuality, drinking, smoking, abortion, 4D, toto, women's dress code, death penalty and whatever else you feel is immorally wrong that you wish to impose on other adults.

Your recent reply suggested a very important thing:

“One may be wrong but an opinion is an opinion and who is to say one is being civil or not civil.”

I cannot rebut this because it is very true. It’s only sad you applied it to defend your actions. To that end, I withdraw myself from this debate. I can no longer see whether individuals such as yourself are truly interested in debating and whether you are any different from the pro-LGBT activists. Just like them, you too seem more interested in rejecting anyone who espouses a different view and wish to lobby people for your own causes, regardless of the implications.

I know this reply is not worthy